A few weeks ago I wrote a blog post here on this site that detailed my experience on an Aer Lingus Regional flight operated from Bristol to Dublin on Monday 27th June.
I have put back up this post which is available here for those who did not have the opportunity to read it before I took it down on the advice of legal representation.
In the post, I outlined my experience aboard that flight and immediately afterwards and the actions of a member of the crew on that flight.
To summarise; during that flight, despite being myself polite, I felt that one of the staff members had been extremely rude and once the flight had landed, just before disembarking I had indicated that I was planning on making a complaint about her behaviour, namely her rudeness and lack of civility. It was at this point that the situation took a turn for the surreal, and shortly thereafter the plane was surrounded by Police cars, I was escorted from the flight and finally I found myself sitting in the Garda station in Dublin Airport.
The post was widely read on the day that it first appeared. I was contacted by a number of newspapers and radio stations including the Irish Times who ran a story the following day outlining the events. I was contacted by a number of lawyers who felt that it outlined a pretty clear case of defamation and I was advised to take down the post pending a possible legal action against the airline. This I duly did, and then spent the next week going back and forth with my solicitor on a possible case.
Unfortunately, after advice from a number of solicitors and barristers, it appears as this stage as though, as the law currently stands, a legal action against the airline is doomed to fail, thanks to a piece of legislation called the Montreal Convention.
This legislation, which was put in place in order to limit the amount of damages that an airline could have awarded against it in the event of an air accident, unfortunately through its language has been previously interpreted in an Irish court of law to mean that it excludes everything else and that you may not sue an airline for anything occurring on an international flight other than death, bodily injury or damage to or loss of luggage.
As a result, the only recourse available to me was to file a complaint to the airlines in question.
In response to this complaint, I received a polite reply from Aer Lingus which outlined their disappointment at hearing about my experience and their regret that I had not enjoyed my flight. It then went on to point out that Aer Lingus Regional was a franchise operation conducted by their partner Aer Arann, and as a result it would be Aer Arann who would be conducting an immediate and full investigation and that it would be Aer Arann that would contact me once this investigation was complete.
Despite sending a fax to Aer Arann on the same day as the fax to Aer Lingus, and a follow up email to clarify whether the fax had been received, it took approximately 3 weeks for Aer Arann to eventually reply to my complaint.
I have now received that communication from Aer Arann and although the letter has been marked private and confidential, I have chosen in respect of this letter to waive my confidentiality and I reproduce it here.
I will allow you the reader to draw your own conclusions about the tone of this letter, but I know how it reads to me.
In it, Aer Arann states that it has
conducted an immediate and full investigation.
It states that that investigation has completed and that
no further action is deemed necessary.
It then states that Aer Arann would be happy to welcome me on board their flights in the future
subject to me giving the airline an assurance that my future conduct will be appropriate and acceptable.
Finally it makes what is in my opinion a very thinly veiled threat that if I attempt to speak any further about this in any public forum, that Aer Arann will
reserve the right to protect its reputation.
I am absolutely astounded and astonished at this tone of this letter and I outline some of my issues with it below;
1) At no point did Aer Arann contact me to ask me to participate in its investigation, and so I don’t understand how the investigation could be considered thorough. It appears as though the investigation canvassed the view and opinion of only one party to this complaint, namely the airline and its employees. The letter does not indicate if any other passengers were asked to participate in the investigation. Certainly there were passengers who commented on my original blog post indicating that they had been on the flight and had observed the events and concurred with my description of those events, however to my knowledge none of these passengers were contacted by Aer Arann or Aer Lingus in order that they could participate in their investigation.
2) Aer Arann does not give the outcome of its investigation, other than to state that no further action is required.
3) Aer Arann makes an unreasonable and unnecessary requirement of me that in order to fly with them again; I will need to provide an assurance that my future conduct will be appropriate and acceptable. As I maintain that my conduct has always been appropriate and acceptable, I have to assume, although it is not clearly stated in the letter, that Aer Arann is not of the same view.
4) The final paragraph in the letter appears to say that should I attempt to speak to the media or blog/tweet or otherwise publicise any information about this flight, experience, complaint or response to my complaint that they will move against me. How it will do this is not outlined, but I fear you do not need to be a legal expert to read between the lines here.
I feel that have been treated appallingly by Aer Lingus and their subcontractor Aer Arann both during and after the flight and again in reply to my complaint about this incredibly stressful experience.
In addition, I had to spend the last month, constantly ringing the Garda Station in Dublin Airport to find out what was happening with the complaint that the crew member originally made about me. Despite the fact that I was released shortly after I was originally detained, because the crew member had made an original complaint about me, the Garda Siochana were bound to follow that complaint to a conclusion. The three possible outcomes were:
1) That no further action was necessary if I accepted a caution.
2) That the complainant (the Aer Lingus Regional crew member) would make a statement about the incident at which point the case would go to court.
3) That the complainant (the Aer Lingus Regional crew member) withdrew the complaint at which point the case would be immediately and permanently closed.
Now obviously I was unwilling to accept a caution, as I did not feel as though I had done anything wrong, so I was anxious to find out whether or not the crew member had followed up with a statement about the complaint.
The Guard that I was dealing with, who was extremely helpful and courteous from the moment that I met him on that fateful night made numerous attempts over the space of three weeks to contact the complainant, but despite leaving a number of messages on her voicemail could not make contact with her. Eventually he confirmed to me, that if she didn’t call him back by the next day that he would attempt to contact her through the airline.
The staff member called him back the very next day, and confirmed that she was withdrawing her original complaint. She made a statement to this effect, and at this point the Guard rang me back to let me know this, and to confirm that the case was now closed and no record would appear next to my name.
You can understand my frustration.
This person made an untrue complaint about me to Gardai which resulted in my being very publicly escorted from a plane in front of 50 – 60 strangers. An event which I had absolutely no control over thanks to the (albeit necessary) importance that the Airport Police and authorities assign to such complaints.
After three weeks of hell waiting to find out what was going on with this complaint, the crew member decided to quietly withdraw her original complaint.
I cannot bring any action against the airline for defamation thanks to the Montreal convention, and as the icing on the cake, (or final slap in the face),
The incredibly terse and unfriendly letter that I received from Aer Arann in response to my complaint seems to adjudge me as guilty as charged (despite the staff member withdrawing the complaint), and I believe makes a thinly veiled threat to pursue me through the courts should I attempt to publicise my experience on their flight, or the response from their customer service department.
In addition, despite claiming in their letter that “Aer Arann places great emphasis on our customer service” the company fails to acknowledge that they had even received a complaint from me directly and furthermore didn’t even have the decency to sign the letter, but rather sent me a printout from a customer service supervisor.
I think that this speaks volumes for the priority that Aer Arann assigns to customer service.
In my opinion, airlines realise that complainants are unable to bring a legal case against them thanks to the Montreal Convention, and as such feel confident that they may respond in this manner secure in the knowledge that they are protected from any further action.
I am absolutely livid with this response. Not only was I treated abominably on the flight in question, their response to me also beggars belief. The national flag carrier of my country, Aer Lingus and one of the companies that they subcontract services out to Aer Arann have treated a paying customer no better than a common criminal.
It would seem to indicate that passengers need to be very careful about dealing with the cabin crew on international flights. I would certainly NOT recommend that you inform them that you are going to make a complaint about them.
In fact I would suggest not speaking, not looking at anything or anyone except the back of the seat in front of you, not purchasing anything from the in flight service. You might as well just pack yourself in your suitcase and go as cargo. It would appear to be the only way to ensure that you protect yourself from this kind of treatment. In addition, thanks to the Montreal convention, loss of your baggage is something that you can bring an action against the airline for. In a bizarre legal loophole, it would appear your luggage has more rights than you do.
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I cannot physically believe it! The letter you have gotten back from Aer Arann looks like a standard template letter they would write back to anyone with a complaint. The letter is impersonal despite the fact they have “taken your complaint seriously”. Seriously my hole!? You would get a better letter in return from a restaurant in which you got a bad soup!
I can’t begin to imagine how frustrated you must feel – all I can say is *hugs*!
Maybe it’s time someone added a ‘criticism’ section to the Aer Arann Wikipedia page?
Oh please do!!!!
This is such an eloquent and well written post and i feel totally aggrieved on your behalf. It would seem that the thorough investigation was lacking some actual thoroughness given you weren’t asked to participate! Aren’t you entitled to a copy of their investigation report/file based on your rights under the data protection act and the fact that the report pertains to you personally? It is so frustrating that these big companies can ride roughshod over the individual, hiding as they do behind their millions and ability to twist the law to suit themselves.
I am fuming on your behalf after reading that
There’s a lot to be said for Ryanair! I can understand your frustration but they kind of have to not admit wrongdoing for legal reasons…
Hi Donal,
it’s that attitude that stands in the way of good service and should never be deemed acceptable.
Feeling incredibly angry for you right now. Don’t see myself flying with them again.
Thoroughly, thoroughly outrageous. I hope you get a satisfactory conclusion to this – I can’t believe that the Brand and their employees would be happy to treat customers like this. Shocking.
Shocking.
Is there any action you can take against the flight attendant through the civil courts for example? Or can you push the Gardaí to investigate her for making a false claim?
Don’t let this die here. Make sure you at least get back on to the airlines to let them know you demand an apology and an acknowledgement that you were wronged in this case,
I realise from the intonation of your post that this would be beneath you, but I would name and shame the daft sow who caused all the fuss in the first place! Good luck with it all.
Wow. A truly appalling response by Aer Arann! *What* are they thinking? Incredible.
Time to go back to Aer Lingus and see what they have to say, surely? The fact that they sub-contract the operation of the route shouldn’t be your concern.
Hi David,
Left a vm with Aer Lingus marketing department earlier today asking them to call me back before I published the post.
To date have received no reply.
Leo
I am so frustrated for you. You need to be given an unmitigated apology, from the member of staff and the company she works for, but clearly, this is unlikely to happen. I know it sucks big time, but you need to try and let this go, or let it consume you.
I am not sure I could take that advice though! The whole thing is horribly unfair, but you need to ask yourself what you can achieve by pursuing it. Maybe a mealy-mouthed apology, or a free flight or two? Is that worth letting this incident stain your life for a few more weeks/months?
I really sympathise. Is it enough to know that you are right, and clearly, after that dreadful response, everyone can see what kind of organisation they are? I hope so, because you could carry on this fight for ages and get nowhere.
Good luck, and know that you have the admiration of many people because of the civil manner in which you have fought your corner…
I didn’t read your original post so only caught up with it all just now. Really well written piece – I was enthralled from the start to finish, only it doesn’t seem like the end just yet…
Ronan
(p.s. I’m fuming on your behalf now!)
I am so sorry to hear of your alleged treatment at the hands of this flight attendant – it can’t have been a nice experience. Following on from the comment above, I would concur with Nicola that you have the right, under the Office of the Data Commissioner to request full copies of any “Investigation” data in which you are mentioned. This includes the right to all correspondence between Are Lingus and Aer Arran with respect to your original complaint, the investigation and indeed even all emails, letters, process documents, investigation transcripts, interviewer notes etc. between the two organisations that relate to you.
I have had experience dealing with the Office of the Data Commissioner and to be honest, they provide an amazing service and they are “DOGGED” in ensuring that you get all information that you are entitled to. Also, large organisations don’t like the transparency that this process forces! It can also get very costly for them in terms of staff time and running stuff past their legal advisors – as they undoubtedly will!
If I were you, I would consider making a Data Protection request to both Aer Lingus and Aer Arann – to see what it drags up.
The call is yours. However there is a lot to be said about just “letting it go” too… these things tend to drag on and use up a disproportionate amount of time and energy. Maybe your best bet is to move on and get on with your life!
I wish you the best with your decision!
Thanks very much for this Nicola and Robert. I will go down this route.
I wish I could say I was surprised, but this is sadly an all too common experience, everywhere in the world – the initial false accusation from an airline staff member seeking to pro-actively protect themselves from the possibility of a complaint, what seems to be a massive police over-reaction (and automatic assumption of heinous guilt by them on the part of the complained-about passenger) followed by an unpleasant arrest and questioning, and then, all of a sudden, all charges dropped (but usually only after some period of mental anguish and possibly some thousands of punts/pounds/dollars in legal costs).
The other sadly predictable and commonplace thing is the ‘circling of the wagons’ whereby the airline and other aircrew on the flight all protect their fellow comrade, although the ‘sting in the tail’ of your experience was the request by Aer Arann that you promise to be well behaved in the future! Bastards.
I understand the apparent Montreal Convention protection issue here. But how about the ‘wasting police time’ and ‘false accusations’ issue? Can you place some gentle pressure on the police to bring a criminal action against the flight attendant? That is presumably not protected by the Montreal Convention, and at this stage, seems to be by far the best approach for you to adopt.
Until such time as air crew stand liable to face some personal negative consequences for their outrageous untruths, such actions will continue. We must make them accountable. If they have a bona fide complaint, then by all means, they should go ahead, and follow up the complaint with a formal statement, and everything else. But if it turns out to be a sham, as in your case, they need to now experience the same consequences that they caused you to suffer.
Lastly, I really don’t understand why you are not ‘naming and shaming’ the flight attendant. Flush her out into the open. That is surely the very least you can do. After she has unfairly harmed your reputation, the least you can do is fairly record the actions which reflect discredit on herself.
“…no further action is deemed necessary.” By who?? Ah the ridiculous all known passive voice of Irish legal writing.
Maybe the Montreal convention protects the airline for what happened in the air, but surely keeping a false complaint against you live (or unwithdrawn, or whatever) for three weeks constituted a continuing and ongoing malicious prosecution by the complainant?
Personally, I hate Aer Arann because you don’t get warning when they’re operating Aer Lingus flights and then they hit you with the 7 kilo cabin luggage limit after you’ve carefully packed 10 kilos per Aer Lingus’s rules. “I’m sorry sir you should have read the terms and conditions…”
To conclude, no further flying by me or my family on Aer Arann, and by extension, Aer Lingus routes operated by Aer Arann, is deemed necessary.
I feel so frustrated on your behalf. Absolutley terrible customer service. I think you’ve shown remarkable constraint and patience.
I can believe this response that you have received, although i would be angered in the same way that you are. I suggest that you contact those national newspapers that first contacted you and inform them of the outcome now that it is not a legal case. do you have contact info for Aer Lingus?
Hi Danny,
I rang and left a message with Aer Lingus marketing department this lunchtime to say that I had received a reply from Aer Arann that I was unhappy with and that I was going to publish on my blog and whether they would like to reply. I gave them until COB today, and they never rang me back
“subject to me giving the airline an assurance that my future conduct will be appropriate and acceptable.”
This is tantamount to an admission of wrong doing, when in fact, you as a customer have suffered and should be compensated as a result. It’s hard to credit that in 2011 that such practice – I can hardly call it service – should exist and somehow be condoned by companies aligned with the Irish state. It’s shameful really and smacks of some sort of unaccountable dysfunctional practice. Over a hundred years ago Oscar Wilde claimed that: “Those who have forgotten how to learn have all taken to teaching.” If this sort of thing is allowed to get away in 2011 we do more than embarrass ourselves, we do ourselves considerable injustice and licence grave unaccountability. As Paul Brady sings, “We’ve sung to much of that before”.
Wow, anyone working in the most basic customer service area knows that if someone has a complaint, you stand and listen to it, offer either an explanation or apology for the deemed inapproriate or offensive behaviour, and if that fails to appease the customer, direct them to the appropriate complaints section for your business. Most customers appreciate the courtesy of being listened to in those cases.
This sounds like the aer arann personel just had blind panic and completely overreacted. Nobody deserves that kind of treatment for simply executing their right to complain. I’m pretty sure you’re entitled to that. I thought Montreal was reserved for threatening behaviour??? Hardly threatening.
Time to get over it I suggest, it’ll just get in on you and wither……………………..
Ever heard of taking a stand?
What a pure defeatist point of view. Do you just accept despicable customer service and treatment from large organisations full stop? That would be pathetic.
No but look how much energy the bloke is wasting on this issue.
Getting the police involved was a joke but we until we have the stewardess side of the story, I tend to stay impartial.
I sense a LOT of drama from the bloke and he is probably enjoying the attention now.
I agree with davidmcn, back to Aer Lingus, with a follow up complaint. Also, is there any chance you can make a complaint about defamation of character against the individual? Force her to defend her actions in court, which would probably force Aer Arann to describe their “investigation” too.
May I suggest that you do NOT stare fixedly at the back of the seat in front of you. That sort of withdrawn, fearful behaviour matches the profile of a suicide bomber and I dread to think what will happen to you then!
Wow Leo you paint a very one-sided story. I can’t believe you haven’t been charged with threatening behaviour on a plane! “Not only was I treated abominably on the flight in question, their response to me also beggars belief.” ….. wow I can’t believe you’re telling the world about this! Enjoy the cabaret act …. go into acting you’ll be good at it! I actually feel sorry for Aer Areann for all the shite publicity your after handing them.
Once again, thanks for your comment.
Of course, you feel sorry for them. I expect they pay your wages. If you were a passenger sitting behind him, why not give a different version of the tale, rather than make a mean-spirited post like this?
‘I actually feel sorry for Aer Areann for all the shite publicity your after handing them.’ Irish vernacular by any chance? Not English.
And it’s ‘you’re’ not ‘your’. Just saying. You could report me…
If you were indeed sitting behind him and he is painting a one sided story care to describe his behaviour that would result in him being charged with threatening behaviour?
Brian
I wrote this in the other post: “Hey Leo, I was sitting directly behind you on that flight and lets face it you’re painting a very one sided picture here. They were very wrong not giving you back the right change and the attendant in question was off her trolly [excuse the pun] but you were no angel yourself and you became very threatening in your body language. You probaly wont publish this comment as I’m giving a witness account but your behaviour was so threatening that I’m leaving an anon comment!”
followed by
You probably are feeling very aggrieved by your experiance but from my viewpoint looking towards the attendent it did look like you were ‘staring out’ her while figuring out a way to make your own complaint regarding the stupid non return of your change. When I first read this I did take it as someone [you] plainly in the wrong but playing the victim and wrongly telling thousands of people that you were hard done by. As I said you probably do feel very aggrived by the embarassing situation you were in.
followed by
Anne the reason why I’ve stayed Anon is because I seen the threatening behaviour I’ve described and to be honest I don’t want any of it coming my way. I know it’s a shit excuse but I happened to chance upon this article through twitter and felt compelled to comment. I know that air attendant felt scared and intimidated and don’t really want to correspond personally to someone who would do that.
You’re missing the point. Five squad cars. Two canine units. This was a serious abuse of power – it was bullying.
@P So, staring at someone sitting directly across from you is threatening behaviour is it? Wee bit of advice for you, don’t go traveling in Asia, you will spend half your time at the local cop shops reporting all the ‘threatening behaviour’ from the locals.
So eh, you were able to see his body language and “intimitading stare” throught the chair that was directly in front of you?
If you were sitting behind him how did you know he was staring at her?
Did you get out of your seat, walk around and check what he was doing?
Quite simply I won’t be travelling Aer Arann ever after reading about their treatment of your complaint. All businesses, never mind during a recession, should treat the individual customer as a VIP. They’ve displayed an unfortunate lack of appreciation for one of the people who make all of their pay-packets possible by not applying appropriate diligence to their investigation of this matter.
Absolutely unbelievable. Do let us know how the case develops…
Making complaints about anything nowadays is made almost impossible and it seems like they just want to exhaust you into submission. Unfortunately I didn’t read the original post but one thing is for sure both companies have acted with complete lack of respect for a customer. I wish you all the best with this.
Disgraceful response by Aer Arann and reflects very badly on both them and Aer Lingus.
While the Montreal Convention might preclude a suit of defamation over the flight, it might be possible that the weasley letter from Aer Arann constitutes a new defamation. I’d take it back to your solicitor. While you are the one that made the disagreement public they are clearly implying by their ‘future conduct’ line that you had been a bad boy and they were graciously letting you back on their flying sheds.
For all the good it will do I’ll be writing to the airline and informing them I won’t be using them again. You have been treated very unfairly by them. That member of staff should be ashamed of herself.
You are not suing them for what happened on the flight, you are suing them for what happened after the flight. I.e. the humiliation in front of the crowd.
Unfortunately the definition of a flight is from terminal building to terminal building.
Didn’t Neil Prenderville get away with having a wank on a plane because said plane was still on the ground?
Time to see a lawyer I think.
Perhaps a nice little boycott on Aer Arann flights by anyone who can do so?
Personally I’d try not to fly with them after this – why run the risk of falling foul of one of the muppets they obviously pass off as cabin crew?
Your case deserves as much publicity as it can get Leo!
Dude: make a Freedom of Information request. Then take that subsequent information (if any, but I’ll bet it turns up *something*) and your complaint to your TD. Make noise.
I think, as the staff member is identified by the airline by their providing her with a name tag, assuming that your account is true, and as the airline hasn’t denied any of the facts you have referenced, I don’t see why you shouldn’t name her.
This sort of behaviour is all to common. My personal opinion is that airlines and their staff members know very well that they have you over a barrel and therefore can behave any which way they like.
I hope there is a way to take that so and so to court if you can’t take her company.
Good Luck Leo. We’re all counting on you.
While I can understand that it is tempting to want to forget about an unpleasant scenario, I think it is important not to allow yourself to be bullied and that’s what this person did.
I don’t know everything about media regulation but I do teach some of it and my understanding is that it really boils down to criminal or civil law, regardless of what media platform it is on; like the Chambers Twitter trial which became a criminal case.
Also they could claim defamation but that’s only if what you say is ‘untrue’ or/and damages a reputation. That would mean dragging it all through the courts and potentially exposing the lack of investigation and lack of statement of the attendant.
So, I wouldn’t worry too much about posting stuff as they wouldn’t want the negative publicity shamelessly pursuing a man through the courts who has done nothing but expressed his view and experience. If it’s not true, then that’s a different story.
I’d go for it if I was you. I’ve had a similar experience with a person I used to work with who has had me censored on facebook and twitter. Long story.
First World Problem. Suck it up and get over it. Less ulcers that way.
It’s people like you that ensure people like that Aer Arann disgrace get away with their behaviour.
People like me? That’s a lot of judgement based on a 14 word comment.
Perhaps you meant “It’s that kind of attitude that ensures…[etc]“
Oh my god, it’s unbelievable that someone can get treated this way. It’s obviously a knee jerk reaction from the flight attendant, afraid of the consequences of her actions. I hope you get the resolution that this case requires and I look forward to seeing the updates.
Meh…. I dont know. This stinks to me. I’d like to hear the conversation between yourself and the stewart that made you want to complain in the first place. Did you really just observe this person being rude to others and did nothing more than advise them that you’d be making a complaint about their behaviour, Sorry but im too long in the tooth to buy that. You’ve just about written a book about what they did to you but at the same time you can just about manage an opening paragraph about the incident that started the entire thing off. Something’s missing here folks. I dont know if this was a personality clash or something said when others were not listening but somethings a miss here. You’re far to vague and evasive about what led up to the police being called and for me,until I hear the previous hours worth then I’ll be reserving my judgement about what really happened here.
PS …… The above respsonses just proves how easy the Irish print media have it. The amount of nodding dog , tut tuters who rallied to your cause without questioning anything just shows how easy led most of the populus can be http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3h-T3KQNxU
Hi EjB,
I linked to the previous post at the very beginning of this post. Perhaps you didn’t see it. It explains the events leading up to the events recounted in this post.
Leo
Leo I’ve just searched you on Google and came up with this http://leothegeek.wordpress.com/2010/10/29/department-of-social-and-family-affairs/ Now sorry for saying but it seems that , after reading your first post about the Aer Lingus debacle , both stories ring very similar. They start with you telling us how you’ve done everything correctly, how you were suprised with some peoples response to you and that in the end it all ends badly with you left wondering how it all happened. Leo if I’m wrong then I owe you an apology but to my mind there’s still something missing and we aint hearing it all. Just the observation of somebody who’s job it is to sniff out Bullsh!t.
EJB,
I have clicked on your below link to a previous article on Leo’s blog. While I agree that every story has two sides, I don’t think the article on Leo’s experience with the department of social and family affairs is in any way the same as this. In fact, I would go as far as to say that he gave a very balanced view of that particular situation: admitting that it must be a difficult job to weed out people defrauding the state and agreeing that it is an important task. His account highlights that the already difficult decision to ask for help from the state, which can make one feel quite stigmatised, is worsened by the impersonal manner in which the claims are processed. I didn’t read it as a rant, but more a reflective social commentary.
The flight posting is quite different, and while it is given from his point of view, (which you can interpret as one-sided, if you’re so inclined) it is detailing what he feels is an injustice – which on reflection, I agree with. Aer Arann had an opportunity to put their case forward in the reply, but they didn’t. We’ve all had occasions where we’ve been treated appallingly, and it takes a strong person to stand up and make a point about it. Aer Arann’s reply was pointed and unsatisfactory…. which is sad, because I reckon a simple apology or at least partial admission of blame would have gone a long way to defusing the situation. It think he’s right to push the matter further.
In the interest of disclosure, I shall admit that I’m a friend of Leo’s. While he’s assertive and articulate, I have NEVER known him to be intimidating. He’s actually quite self-deprecating if in the wrong (which annoyingly is not very often!) so I have no hesitation in agreeing with him that he has been wronged on this occasion.
Aoife
Leo – was it a female per chance? And did you happen to be talking on your phone from walking from the main concourse to the plane itself? (I know of one Aer Arann cabin crew who was extremely rude and threatening to a man of Indian extraction who was talking on the phone while walking to the plane, she stopped short of shouting at him)… I know because I was sitting in the plane and overheard the whole incident… (she then spent the flight flirting with two businessmen who were sitting in the back)…
There’s two sides to every story. I’d like to hear their side.
In fairness Páid, I think that’s all Leo is looking for too. He has written to the two airlines complaining about what he was accused of, and requesting a full investigation. It would appear that has not been given the opportunity for same.
Shame on you Aer Lingus and Aer Arann……You are suppose to be one of the top airlines in the world. I have never flown with any other airline before only Aer Lingus, but this behaviour is unacceptable and i will be considering my flight travel with another airline from now on.
That crew member should be named and shamed and her picture put on on all airplanes asking the passengers to avoid her like the plague. Loved your blog.
So sorry to read about your experiences! When I think about that air hostess I am so glad I don’t have periods anymore!
Don’t know who is giving me the ‘thumbs down’ on this comment – women? – but let’s be honest girls – periods can render a woman a tad ‘over reactive’ – let’s call a spade a spade here
As an adult woman who gets periods and still manages to treat people with respect and professional behaviour I find this kind of comment utterly ridulous.
this is nasty business altogether. even if you were being ignorant and rude yourself (for the sake of argument), the fact that this air hostess has the power to create that situation and essentially imprison you – without any actual statement made or formal complaint withstanding – is scary. customs and security are intimidating enough to the innocent traveler. and the airline’s response is so idiotic.
the more coverage this gets, the more they will take it seriously. both the air hostess and the customer relations supervisor who wrote the letter need a few reminders of what “customer service” means.
don’t let this slide
Dude, the only other thing I can say is go again to the Media. You have done nothing wrong so you have nothing to fear. As someone how works in PR, I can tell you that the Daily Mail or The Irish Sun would be prefect.
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This will be my last comment here and fair play to you Leo for allowing me to have my say. I’m keeping myself Anon because from what I seen I do not want to have anything to do with you after what I seen on that flight. I too had a wonderful weekend at Glastonbury and the flight home should have been a distant memory. However when you intimidated that female attendent and frightened her to the extent that she had to phone for Gardai back-up it really shook me. I was delighted to see the Gaurds and their dogs on the runway. The attendant was cocky, slightly rude and together her collegue made a stupid error of judgement. But when you became intimidating you lost all right to a complaint. It sickens me thatso many of your readers feel sorry for you. I cant imagine how long it took for that flight attendant to get ‘over’ the situation. Believe it was worse for her than for you!
In your opinion what did happen ?
@EjB, it all stems from the change from a fifty scenario. What Leo describes is pretty much what happened. I think Leo & his companion should have kept to themselves and wrote their letter of complaint about both air hosts as it’s crazy that they were over-charged for their drinks. At this point I’m on their side and the attendants are assholes. When it came to preparation for landing the attendant needed her chair and Leo’s leg was in the way. Could have been something in that from either party! At this stage the attendant was looking for Leo’s reaction and she got what she was looking for. There was some dialogue about getting attendants name so he could make a complaint. At this point there’s just 2 feet between the two. She thought he was being intimidating by staring at her. She feft adequately threatened to call for back-up. Behind all these comments, all these tweets and an irresponcible Irish Times article there is someone who felt so frightened for her safety that she needed the Gaurds. No one can defend the airlines responce but if Leo continues with his complaints isn’t going to prolonge her distress? 2 sides to every story folks. I’d like to read your reply to this Leo.
Hi P,
I have to ask how I was being intimidating?
Did I say something intimidating?
Did I shout? For that matter did I whisper?
Did I make a threatening gesture? Raise my fist? Point my finger?
Did I get out of my seat?
You say that I was staring at the stewardess.
I certainly gave her a dirty look after she barked at me (for the 4th or 5th time during that flight) when she found my leg stretched out in front of me, but I categorically deny that I was attempting to intimidate her by staring. I wanted her to know that I felt her comportment throughout the entire flight was unacceptable and I told her so. I also announced my intention to record a complaint. She replied that she would report me.
My complaint resulted in a risible letter from Aer Arann.
Her complaint resulted in me being met off an international flight and detained by Gardaí, something that could affect my job, my life, my future ability to fly, to leave the country.
Regardless of whatever reason this stewardess took a dislike to me, and I am convinced this was indeed that, whether it was my height, the fact that I hadn’t showered in 5 days, whatever it was her reaction was completely ridiculous. I assume that as you were right behind me, you will have heard her last parting comment to me when she stood up to go into the cockpit.
“I have had a great day, and I am NOT going to let you ruin it.”
Does that sound like someone who was so intimidated that she needed to push the panic button on airport security?
Again, thank you for the point of view.
Leo
Given that several (named) people on the flight have commented on this blog on how leo’s story was the correct version of events and how the were appalled about how he was treated, I am a little sceptical of this anonymous commentor.
But regardless of whether the above person is fake or not, as someone else has already said- Leo is only looking for what the complainant said about him, which is (or should be) completely in his right to do.
You’re giving out about how he’s only telling one side of the story: it’s the only side he has… The difference between himself and Aer Arann is that Leo is looking for both sides whereas Aer Arann refuses to recognise that there might be two sides.
@Leo ““I have had a great day, and I am NOT going to let you ruin it.””
You mean that was her in a GOOD mood? Jaysus I’d hate to meet her when she’s annoyed!
why was the complaint not upheld, or he was not charged?
why is he suddenly allowed back onto their planes if he was so threatening that she need time to ‘get over it and you’re are intimidated by him?
Seriously?!!! Staring?!! Im a small girl (5ft 0) and would get intimidated easily, but staring is a fairly harmless (and probably Irish) way of registering disgust. Im sure it can be a little intimidating but it hardly warrants a very public arrest. Anyone in any sort of job dealing with the public would experience a lot worse and what she has done could be massively harmful to Leo’s future, career or both. This a very serious act by a unsophisticated, oversensitive girl who is give far too much power.
@ P….. What were the actions/words that you feel were intimidating? You don’t have to reveal your identity to operationally define what you seen. You are using the description of ‘intimidation’ but not describing what it entailed.
If they were as intimidating and threatening as you describe (without actually describing) above, why do you feel the attendant dropped her complaint?
I’ve noticed that Aer Lingus cabin staff have become progressively more bad mannered and rude over the past 5 years or so. In stark contrast to other airlines I’ve flown and I’ve flown a lot. This all reads as incredibly vindictive and petty on Aer Aranns behalf and your experience as you depict it is indicative of what I perceive as an endemic “Us vs. Them” attitude towards passengers. I’m aware that they do have a great deal of responsibility towards us as far as our in-flight safety is concerned, but a little respect and courtesy towards passengers isn’t too much to ask. On a recent Aer Lingus flight, I had a wad of chewing gum, that I hadn’t noticed was stuck to the back of the safety belts buckle, melt all over my trousers in flight. When I complained about having a dendritic mass of gum involuntarily adorn my favourite jeans, I was told in clipped and rather discourteous tones that it wasn’t their problem, that they weren’t responsible for housekeeping (which I can sort of understand) and my complaint was dismissed. Had the attendant been courteous and willing to do something (I’m not asking for an act of Greek heroism), my experience as a customer would’ve been entirely more positive. As it transpired, it wasn’t.
I fly Aer Lingus regularly from London and find their cabin crew some of the best in Europe, I’ve also flown British Airways, Ryanair, easyJet, BMI and Lufthansa and out of all of them, Aer Lingus crew stand out as being the most friendly and genuine while also professional without being stuck up about it like BA crew can often be.
Not that any of this really counts in this situation as the cabin crew in question works for Aer Arann, she has probably never even stepped foot on board an Aer Lingus operated aircraft as on duty flight attendant.
May I also add that I am disgusted at the response Leo has received from Aer Arann, the threatening tone of the letter is unacceptable.
Hi Leo , interestingly you state that the Irish State (presumably through the courts) has chosen to interpret the Montreal Convention in a particular way, ie. in a previous discussion with you , you mentioned that the passenger is considered “en route” between departure gate and arrival gate thereby governed by the Convention even on the airport apron, do you think that this is a proper interpretation of the Convention or is the Irish State being its usual over facilitating self?
I believe that what has happened to you is an extremely serious example of a breach of fundamental human rights (the right to good character) and this should over-ride any other legal considerations.
The response from Aer Lingus is risible , Aer Arann are subcontractors and as such Aer Lingus are the ultimate port of call legally and cannot simply pass everything over to Aer Arann.
I am infuriated that this has occurred and it reminds me of the worst excesses of the travelling experiences of Irish people at the hands of the British authorities under the Prevention of Terrorism Act during the seventies, only this time it is facilitated by our own semi-state companies.
I have been exercised by your experience since your first posting, plain and simply it is a horrendous abuse of power- regardless of any action other than threatening the safety of the aircraft – (and needless to say I am not questioning your account) .I believe that this is a very grave matter of human rights and justice and worse an over-riding of our own legal system by some International Convention entered into without debate or public discussion, as such I also believe that the correct forum to address this matter, for the benefit of the general public , is the Dail.
For your own personal grievance it would seem to me that the “review” conducted by Aer Arann did not involve “due process” and therefore has no legal standing of any kind, you should be in a position to challenge this.
This is a very serious issue, even though it may not seem so initially, it deserves much wider publicity and coverage than it has heretofore recieved, if I can help in any way please do not hesitate to contact me.
Regards
Brian
Thanks Brian,
I will see what happens and I may well be in contact.
Leo
@p So what you’re telling me is that they’re both right. She was rude and Leo had every right to complain about the service but he also acted in an intimidatory fashion, so much so that she was right to call the Guards. If this is right then this really is ( and in all honesty always has been ) a non event. Grow up, move on and learn when you’re done Leo.
so what you’re saying guy that was sitting behind Leo is he got angry because someone refused to give him his own money back. sorry that would annoy me too. you think if that happened in a shop that the assistants first instinct would be to call the guards? there’s a weird culture of police over reacting to an incident if its on a flight.
You believe wasting the Guards time is a “non event”? You think Airline staff should have the right to summon the police to anyone they take a dislike too, humiliating them in public? Possibly affecting their ability to travel in the future?
To both miked & Brian above :
Firstly on mikeds comment : Nowhere in my previous posts did I say that staff have the right to treat people this way but what I did say was there’s more to this than is being let on here. Peoples perception of a situation on both sides can be changed by the slighest of slight comments or gestures. When asked to turn off the phone did Leo reply with a positive answer yet in a negative tone or with a look of distain. By his own admission it had been a long event and he just wanted to get home. He might have ment nothing by it ( it being what ever it was that happened and not this exact gesture ) but such a small thing can change the sub concious relationship between the two. Also people pick up on body language long before a word is spoken. The aul saying ” There’s no smoke without fire ” is a very true saying. People often react to things just because their third eye for the want of a better expression, their ESP has picked something up that the five senses dont pick up on. Something gave here between these two people if they know it or not , what that was I dont know but one things for sure and that is that something else happened. Both parties IMO allowed a non situation to develop into something it shoiuld not have, neither party was able to defuse it.
@Brian : If the stewart felt the need to call the Guards ( for right or wrong ) then their was no waste of anyones time. I just cant see a situation where the captain would call them out to greet the plane without due cause. Being stuck in the air when a situation develops must highten the concerns of all a lot so it probably added to the reaction of both parties involved. Maybe calling the Guards in hind sight was an over reaction but again I refer to my above comment , the perception by these two parties only of what was going on a that time is all that matters. One of them should have defused the situation. And yes this really is a non event. It happens everyday in all walks of life, people just cool off and move on. Worst thing that happened here is a little pride was hurt. This didnt just happen, that’s for sure.
PS ~did you read the link I posted above. It was a similar story posted by Leo on his blog in relation to an experience he had with the social welfare. Read it and then tell me if his defensivness in that situation and in this one doesnt carry through. Leo might not even know he’s gaing a reaction from thes people but he is ….
To EjB below, it seems like there was mutual rudeness going on, which happens all the time in all walks of life. But getting offended by his body language? Sorry, but anyone over the age of 2 should be able to deal with that.
I’m not saying either party handled the situation well, I’m in no position to say as, like you, I wasn’t on the flight.
Getting the cops out was outrageous, an abuse of power, bullying, and could have a very serious impact on his right to a good name. I would be livid if the same thing happened to me.
Leo, best of luck with this. Hope you get it resolved.
It sounds like a scene from Due Date the movie. Only this is reality. Very badly treated by the service provider. Not good.
I am writhing here in disgust. I really am astounded that that is even possible. At this point, I want to see a public apology to you on the news and posters (along with a big cheque)! As some who flies regularly (every 2 weeks-Irish working in UK) I am always surprised how many of my rights I seem to loose when entering the aircraft in the interest of safety (why cant I leave my earphones in with my phone turned off?), but this is beyond belief…. There could have been a potential future employer on that flight. Ugh, I totally gobsmacked, and really want to see this resolved. Best of luck
“Behind all these comments, all these tweets and an irresponcible Irish Times article there is someone who felt so frightened for her safety that she needed the Gaurds.”
Or so vindictive…why didn’t she come forward with her side of the story if so intimidated? Wouldn’t the airline defend her if they believed her side? Should we all take that sort of treatment from airline staff in the future because they fall under some protective travel law? If it’s let happen will more incidents be allowed? Are future complaints likely to receive similar response? What ever happened to customer is always right?
Either way the threatening Aer Arann reply means he knows no more now despite his arrest, correspondence and airline investigation.
I have been a licenced pilot for more than 20 years. Without wishing to take any sides here, I’d just like to question something that was mentioned earlier. A flight is *not* terminal to terminal in international air law. It is engine start to engine shutdown (sometimes referred to as “doors”). This may have a bearing on your legal position.
If she was really worried, she would have followed through with the complaint!
I posted this on Aer Lingus’ Facebook page. We’ll see…
Liz – nice idea but Aer Lingus does not operate a facebook page. If you read the info box on the left hand side of the page you refer to, you’ll see it’s called a Fan Page. That’s why complaints, queries about timetables, seat requests etc are best directed to …. the airline itself using the communications platforms they offer, regardless of how slow & cumbersome they are.
Leo, as I said on T earlier, a dangerous power-trip by this CCM. I think she backed down from her complaint against you as she could see it was unfounded. I agree that you should follow up, in the first instance with Aer Arann, but additionally with Aer Lingus, as it reflects very poorly on Aer Lingus. Best of luck.
Ohh is this still news??? I have heard one side of this story and well it sounds like Leo went ott with this. Im not sayin he is a lier something along the lines of what he descirbed may have happened. Perhaps this crew member was a right B ! But i have flown many times with Ryanair Aer Lingus and Aer Arann and i have to say i have met some of the nicest friendliest staff in the industry then again i am always polite and respectful towards others. Its a shame this girl is undoing all their work building a reputation. There are bad apples in every company and Leo encountered a rotten one in this case!
Will i fly Aer Lingus again? Yes i will not allow one girl to turn me away from a company that ha so many fantastic staff. I hope Leo gets a proper decent reply and explanation for what happened so it can be left alone.
Does the protection from defamation suits cover only the airline itself?
In other words, if you can’t sue Aer Arann/Aer Lingus, can you sue the flight attendant herself?
Under the data protection act, are you not entitled to see a full copy of the “investigation” that they made. You may be entitled to it as you were or should have been mentioned in the “investigation”.
Be interesting for you to see the report they made if any.
Perhaps Ryanair might help you publicise this? Might be morally questionable, but they seem to love dishing out dirt on their competitors!
I would like to write a letter of complaint about their response to you – can I do this? Can we all do this? Basically, a letter/email which references your story and expresses my (our?) outrage at the disrespect they have shown their customers.
Who do I (we?) write to?
Aer Lingus Customer Care Unit
Aer Lingus Head Office
Dublin Airport
Ireland
Fax Number: 00353 1 8863832
&
Customer Relation Department
Aer Arann,
1 Northwood Avenue,
Santry,
Dublin 9
I’m in!!!
I’ve tried my best to see your point of view here Leo. In terms of the change thing I’m on your side. However if this makes it to court somewhere I’ll be defending the attendant. From the attendant’s perspective here’s a guy who after a number of days in a music festival knocks back a double whiskey and begins staring at her. You didn’t have to enter her personal space as the seat she had to sit on was directly opposite you. She asked you to stop staring at her. You didn’t. What was she meant to do? Say thank you for flying aer arran and hope to see you again to intimidate other people? I think she dropped her complaint because they were in the wrong regarding the change and yeah she was rude and uncivil at times….. in response to your [precieved?] intimidation. The fact it went national and might end up in court from the attendant point of view is an attempt from you to continue that intimidation. I think that’s what has disgusted me about this whole debacle. The fact you’ve got literally hundreds of people on your side and turned away from Aer Lingus/Aer Arran shows the damaging power that blogs have. This is a major wake-up call for me.
Hi P,
This will be the last time that I reply to one of your comments. Despite mentioning 6 or 7 comments ago that you wouldn’t be commenting again you have been one of the most vocal commenters on this post, but that is neither here nor there, I said that I wouldn’t censor your posts and I haven’t. You confirm everything that I have said happened on that flight right up to the point where you say that I was intimidating the stewardess, I replied to your last comment to this effect asking you to detail exactly how I was intimidating the stewardess, and a number of other commenters have done likewise, however you have steadfastly refused to answer this question. As for your comment re: personal space, I am not sure what you are referring to here. We were all strapped into our assigned seats, I am not sure how I managed to ‘enter her personal space’. As for your contention that I am continuing this intimidation now by this post, I again fail to see how what I am doing could be considered intimidation of an individual. I have not named this crew member, all that I am trying to do with this post is publicise the way that I was treated on the flight and the way that the company treated my complaint thereafter. As for you defending the stewardess when this makes it to court, again I think that you may not have fully read the post, but part of the reason that I have had to recount these events on the blog is because I am unable to take the company to court. I am left with no alternative.
Once again thank you for your contribution to this discussion, however at this stage, if you are unwilling to elaborate as has been requested, I would ask that you don’t comment again. You have made your position clear.
Thanks,
Leo
Read what I wrote … I never said the words ‘enter her personal space’ because you didn’t have to enter it due to the proximity of the seats. From my viewpoint I generally seen the reaction of the attendant to you staring at her. So it looks to me that staring was intimidating. That’s all I can say. Yeah it was stupid of me to have written ‘this is the last comment’ but I feel so strongly that you’re portraying a one sided story and felt compelled to give the other side of the story. I re-read again for the 3rd tome everything you wrote. Man I think you should count yourself lucky the complaint was dropped and you can travel with the airline again! [I'll state again I am anon because from my viewpoint the behaviour of Leo towards the attendant was scary and despicable and I dont want any of that on my doorstep]
Hi P,
I am afraid that you are contradicting yourself now:
From your last comment
” You didn’t have to enter her personal space”
Leo
Hey ‘P’,
To be completely honest with you, sounds like you’re an out an out sexist. The fact that Leo a male, and attendant a female has influenced everything you’ve said IMHO.
It takes two to stare. The only difference being their sex then, since you’ve said both acted poorly.
I don’t see that a cheaply made uniform gives this attendant (or the fact that it was a female) the right to summon the might of the law and be beyond reproach for abuse of same.
Leo calls police, Dog team takes away flight attendant for ‘staring with intent’. Wait… That’s ridiculous… But it’s the right you seem to defend.
Have a long hard think as to why your view seems to differ from a fairly standard view from others.
Much love
J
Thanks very much for this well-written and informative post. I’m ripping for you, as I think everyone at different points has felt aggrieved, bullied and undervalued by an airline (which is a disgrace given how much money it costs to fly).
I’m very intrigued about the Montreal Convention by the way. That needs to be overturned.
Your story just highlights something that I believe very strongly: due to the enhanced security concerns, the legal protection and the necessity of the serive it provides, more often than not airlines and their ancillary services are in the business of treating people with indifference, suspicion and often plain contempt. It has to stop.
Personally I’m a big advocate of Teleporter research.
Here is what I think may have happened ……………..I think this woman mistook you for someone from school or University (however I seriously doubt the latter on her behalf as she doesn’t strike me as someone well educated) who perhaps she’d had a grudge against or hated, who she then set about getting her revenge on in a rather childish manner. Just an idea! There’s really no excuse for her behavior.
I’d like to question however why she wasn’t prosecuted as she wasted police time and resources on what was basically a figment of her twisted mind or overactive imagination.
Check this out http://www.fingal-independent.ie/news/woman-warned-for-wasting-court-time-2826008.html.
This woman was charged with wasting Gardaí time and resources, so why not this flight attendant? Just a thought!!!
A scenario to consider :
If there is “history” between a passenger and a cabin crew member during a flight where he/she felt threatened, would it not be sensible for them to move to a different jump seat – or spare passenger seat ?
The cre wmember can easily move, the passenger no so !
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Leo , thanks for the update , a long meeting with Aer Arann was indeed encouraging , however the essential issues remain , (a) One would appear to abandon the normal Habeas Corpus rights under the Montreal Convention with no recourse. (b) The Montreal Convention is being interpreted by Irish airlines as covering “gate to gate” including the airport apron, which is itself is State property and rightly ought to be covered by our civil laws and not subject to any International treaty governing airlines. (c) The entire interpretation of events covered by the Convention rests with any member of an airline crew , who appear to have discretion to request overweening responses from civic authorities although they are not themselves law officers. (d) Normal human rights seem to have been abandoned in respect of flights and recourse is also abandoned.
This remains a matter for our own legislature, and should have been debated authoritatively before any citizen of the state was subjected to this loose interpretation.
All of this is said with due deference to your current position and imposed silence , but also applies regardless of the specifics of your case and really should be borne in mind by any traveller.
Brian
Leo. Just read thro posts and your detailed correspondence.
Your experience echoes my own with aer arann.
While guards not involved i was vindictively prevented from making a connecting flight when making a complaint about cabin crew behaviour.
I received a similar vacous response following a written complaint. The event occurred about 4 years ago. Plus ca change…
Leo,
Consider escalating it up to the Aer Arann/Aer Lingus CEO/Chairman’s office, if you can get some direct contact details. The letter looks like a stock response and you might get some better engagement at a higher level.
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“Despite sending a fax to Aer Arann on the same day as the fax to Aer Lingus, and a follow up email to clarify whether the fax had been received, it took approximately 3 weeks for Aer Arann to eventually reply to my complaint.”
But the letter from Aer Arann is dated the 8th of July and states that your original fax of complaint to Aer Lingus was sent on the 30th of June. That’s just over a week. Granted it was sent on a Friday so may not have reached you until Tuesday. Still, it’s not 3 weeks and it certainly isn’t a long time for an airline to investigate a complaint and respond.
Don’t get me wrong, I think their response is totally dismissive and unacceptable but you’re not doing your cause any favours by embellishing the truth.
My opinion, for what it’s worth, is that the stewardess overreacted completely and she should have to answer for her actions. This is especially true considering that she dropped the complaint, she should have to face disciplinary action for wasting the emergency services, and your, time.
However… I do feel that you are not 100% blameless. You acknowledge that you did stare at the employee, or if not so much stared, you spent a lot of time looking at her during the descent. Let’s be honest, you must have expected a reaction, it’s common sense. You say that you had nowhere else to look, but you had a magazine. You could have noted her name quickly and read your magazine until the flight was over.
…But then there’s the issue of the smirk. If it’s true that she gave you a wry smile, then she was the one provoking a reaction and I could understand why you would have stared at her in disbelief.
This made me mad, and it had nothing to do with me.
Keep fighting the good fight Leo!
I think “p sitting directly behind you on that plane” is either the flight attendant herself or a friend trying to stand up for the flight attendant. Its just doesn’t add up.
Either way “P” your story does not sound true and as you keep contradicting yourself I am inclined not to believe you.
Geek, don’t give up, don’t listen to the people who are telling you to give up, if you are willing, fight till the end, these companies cant be let get away with this kind of behaviour.
I only found this post while searching for a way to complain to Aer Lingus, DONT GIVE UP!!